Cheap or Evolved?
I met Daniel after several email exchanges and a phone call. It was during our conversation that he shared his love of seafood and I told him of my recently acquired taste for raw oysters. You couldn’t have paid me a million dollars to try them in the past.
Daniel was an interesting guy. He had an exciting job at a major television network and the stories he told during our initial conversation were riveting. He worked with celebrities and had the inside scoop on what they were really like.
Yes, I read The New Yorker, but I also find a juicy People irresistible.
Oh shut up, we all have guilty pleasures. Love you, Bethenny.
Daniel picked Grand Central Oyster Bar for our first date. I’ve been told it has the best oysters in the city so I was pleased with his choice. We met at the clock and Daniel did not disappoint in looks or dress. Tall, handsome and stylish—the trifecta of first impressions.
The restaurant was not what I expected. Crowded, noisy and ambiance that was more diner than dining. A surly host seated us and a brusque waiter took our drink and then dinner order.
I guess when there’s a captive audience of hungry travelers a welcoming staff isn’t a priority.
Although the atmosphere did little to set the stage, there was a palpable attraction between us. A sexual undercurrent that made the restaurant bathroom scene in Unfaithful seem almost like a logical alternative.
Except it was Grand Central.
The chance of a homeless person bathing in the washroom sink was a distinct possibility—might be a buzz kill.
Once we finished our meal (oysters were amazing), Daniel suggested we get a drink at The Campbell Apartment, a cool bar with an interesting past.
He asked our sullen waiter for the bill and then immediately excused himself to the men’s room before it had arrived.
That’s weird.
I looked at the check on the table.
Does he expect me to pony up? Did he walk away so I’d look at it?
I was not going to pay. Daniel asked me out, it was a first date and I’ve never paid a bill or even a portion of one in my life on any date, first or otherwise. I disregarded the timing of his departure and when he returned he handled the check.
On to The Campbell Apartment.
Again, big sexual chemistry and we openly flirted. Then Daniel kissed me. It was a great kiss but we were moving too fast. One more cocktail and I would be looking for a dark corner for a heavy make out session.
Don’t judge. You’ve been there too.
I called it a night before hands were victorious over brain. Daniel asked for the check and then excused himself—AGAIN.
What the fuck? Seriously? On a first date?
It was waiting for him when he returned and he paid without hesitation. We kissed goodnight—excellent again—and he said he looked forward to our next date.
Maybe I was wrong?
A week later he invited me to Cleopatra’s Needle, a bar on 92nd and Broadway that featured live jazz–a favorite of the NYC jazz community. The place was packed and had a cool vibe.
There seems to be an organic “cool” to every jazz lover I’ve known and Daniel was no exception.
We cozied up to the bar and each other, had a couple of drinks and listened to the music. Another great evening with huge sexual undertones—then Daniel asked for the bill.
AND HE DID IT AGAIN.
For confirmation I decided to test his exitus opportunus. I pulled out my credit card and when he returned I put it on bill.
“I thought I’d pay this time.” I said, and studied his face.
“Are you sure?”
Not the response I was hoping for so I upped the ante.
“Well, I’ve never paid for a date in…my…life, but I’ve been thinking it’s only fair. You got the last one, it’s my turn. So how do you feel about that?” There was plenty of emphasis on “feel” as I hoped that he’d understand that feeling strongly one way or the other was expected.
“I like an independent woman and love to be the first at anything,” he said with a wry smile as he squeezed my upper thigh. I think he was even more into me than before.
Ew.
With that reply, Daniel left his Sexy in the bathroom.
A quick peck and I was headed home. We wouldn’t go out again, I decided as I strode towards my street. It wasn’t so much that he let me pay on the second date; it was that it confirmed that he’d expected me to pay some portion on the first.
Daniel followed up with nice texts over the next few days. I ignored them. He called. I didn’t answer. Finally he left a message and I could hear that he was hurt. He asked if he’d done something wrong and would I please let him know why I’d pulled away. I called him back and explained. I told him I was struggling with my “men always pay” dating mindset. That I’d even written a post about it, and as much as I like to think of myself as an independent woman, it bothered me that he didn’t protest. I even mentioned his strategically timed potty breaks.
Daniel calmly explained that he went to the bathroom because he had a long trip back to the Upper East Side where he lived and we had been drinking. He explained that after dating for 30 years in NYC he’d met many independent women who insisted on paying. He’d actually had heated arguments with some and didn’t want to experience that again.
Cheap or evolved?
“I’ve learned that when a woman wants to pay, let her. I’m done fighting over the bill.”
It made sense, but I still needed some time to decide if I believed him. I asked that he give me some space so I could process everything.
The “space to process” is one of the lamest things I’ve ever said. If a guy said that to me, imagine how much fun I’d have on this blog lambasting the use of that tired old cliché.
The truth? I liked Daniel and it was rare–almost nonexistent–to feel sexual attraction to any of the men I’d met online. I was trying to figure out if I could be with a guy who expected me to pay on a first date.
A week later he sent me a text: I’d like you be my guest sometime this week. I miss your smile.
He missed my smile? Aww. Of course I accepted.
We met for a movie on Friday evening at a theatre close to my apartment. Daniel was waiting in the lobby with the tickets. Whew, I was afraid we’d be standing in line and nature would call.
We went to see The Raven. It wouldn’t have been my movie of choice but I was his guest. We passed the snack bar and Daniel didn’t ask if I wanted anything.
I always want something.
Once inside the theatre he inquired. He was going to get a bottle of water for himself. I asked for a Diet Coke, but told him no worries if the line was too long.
The line should never be too long.
Ever.
No matter what.
And he said it was.
Hmm, cheap or evolved?
Daniel sat next to me, took my hand and smiled.
“You know, with the amount of commercials they show before a movie you’d think the ticket prices would go down.”
Yep, cheap.
“He’s so cheap, he’s got the first nickel he every made.” Something my grandmother, Aili Bennett, said regularly about anyone she suspected might be cheap. It’s genetic.
Dear Melani, I enjoy your blog! But I really don’t understand this post. It seems normal that people share the expense of “dates”. I am a few years older than you but basically of the same generation, and at this stage in my life, financially well off. I can’t understand your retro “the man must always pay on a date”. It sounds like my mother’s time or the advice she gave me when I started dating (in 1969!). But times have changed. I prefer the more egalitarian way. Okay, on the first date, it’s sweet for the man to treat. But every time? It sends a message that I don’t like. I want men to know I’m independent, financially, and in every other way. Of course I like gentlemanly behavior, opening doors, holding my coat, letting me go first to the table. These manners are charming and expected, at least for me personally. But paying for everything – I don’t need or want that. From the things you’ve written about yourself (other than on this topic), I’m surprised that for you it’s a deal breaker. Especially when you liked the guy! As for talking about ticket price, that’s a remark that my handsome husband would make. Talking about prices occasionally is normal small talk. You might be right about this guy being cheap, but from the information you’ve given so far, there’s just not enough evidence, at least that I can see. He sounds really nice. In any case, all the best to you!
Elizabeth, thanks for your comment. I agree that people sometimes talk about the elevated movie ticket price, but after I’d told him about my concerns? I also agree that “the man always pays” is something dated. I am more concerned that his strategically scheduled bathroom break was so I could check out the bill. I have a huge problem with a man asking me out and then expecting me to pay on a first date. Thanks again for your comment. Keep ‘em coming!
Elizabeth, You’re a very smart, independent woman and I agree with you 100%. You appreciate manners and chivalry but can take care of yourself and hold your own. I would be very happy to find someone near me to date who thinks like you do!
Bruce, you’re a cheap bitch! LOL! Masculine men always pay. Period. They are providers. They pay. Feminine men want the woman to pay. That’s how I separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak… just like Melani does. I agree with her 100%. I will contribute in other ways, but never by directly paying for anything.
As my fave Dr Pat Allen says: “You can either want to get paid or get laid.” Those are the choices. Those are the set roles. Make your choice. That’s it.
Melani, if you were here in L.A. I’d recommend one of Dr Pat Allen’s Monday night relationship seminars. She’s frank, funny and enlightening. She refers to what you’re doing as “Duty Dating”. I have female friends who go, and many more male friends who attend frequently. They’re masculine men, handsome, well educated and affluent who have everything but the right woman. They’re exactly who you’re looking for. They go to Pat to find out what they’re doing wrong, and how to correct it. She has an amazing track record in this regard. Bet she could fix Daniel
http://www.drpatallen.com
I’m enjoying your dates. I’ll be sad when your year of internet dating is over. How about extending it to 2 years, by popular demand?
Susan
Susan, thanks for the link. I’ll check her out and might visit L.A. sometime this month. If so I’ll try to make her seminar. I agree, “separating the wheat from the chaff” and that’s what I’m doing with this year. Doing my best to find what I’m looking for. It turns me off when a man agrees to a woman paying. It is also a turn off when a man has nose hair, body odor, or lies about his age, height, etc. I’m separating the wheat in many areas and this one isn’t about money (although many readers seems to think it is). I don’t care if a guy takes me for a walk along the Hudson on a first date. I’m not dating for dinner–I’m capable of eating good food without a guy taking me out–I want to get to know him. BUT, if he asks me out to dinner, he should pay. Period. Thanks for you comment!
Susan,
I’ll admit that my values are old fashioned and as such, I always pay even when my date offers. I’ll admit that yesterday we were in the same area of the city and agreed to meet at a coffee shop for coffee and chat and she said she was buying and I didn’t argue. She laughed and said it was a good trade off as I had bought lunch on Saturday.
What I was trying to say with the earlier post is that when my date offers to chip in..while I politely decline, I find it refreshing that a woman is strong and independent enough to offer to pay her way. I don’t want or expect her to pay but her showing she can hold her own, is attractive to me.
If that makes me a cheap bitch….Oh well!
“They’re masculine men, handsome, well educated and affluent who have everything but the right woman.”
Somehow, this might make sense to a woman but to a guy, not so much. A guy who has all that going for him and needs a Dr to coach them….I see red flags.
Ms Beverlyhills, your description of those men for the most part is superficial with the exception of well educated and I learned long time ago that there can be a major difference between well educated and smart…but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Yours truly,
cheap bitch
Hi Cheap Bitch Bruce:
Amazingly enough, I’ve dated very sucessful men who possess genius IQs, brainiacs with photographic memories, WallSt financial geniuses, who were complete idiots in their personal lives. Absolutely true. Sometimes it’s due to the fact that they believe The Rules of Conduct don’t apply to them, or often don’t even know what The Rules are. They get away with a lot of crap because of their social status.
Pat Allen has an amazing track record with setting these guys straight. They’re eternally grateful to her for her service. She’s not really a “Life Coach” type, but a Psychologist who works with clients in a different way than the norm. She helps them change their behavior to get the type of woman they want, which is always the type of woman who finds their current behavior completely unacceptable. They seek her help of out of sheer frustration because while their biz life may be gloriously successful, their personal life is anything but.
As for my description of men striking you as being “superficial”, it is what it is. My #1 requirement is that a man be physically/sexually attractive to me, and well educated. Smarter than me. Doesn’t matter whether they graduated from Harvard or the School of Hard Knocks. I won’t date a man who doesn’t fit that description. That’s what “floats my boat”. In my biz life I am strong & independent and play a masculine role. However, in my personal life I am a “feminine” woman and want a strong, masculine, smart, sexually aggressive man.
I find Melani’s dating adventures fasinating! I’ve had my share of bad dates, but I’ll readily admit never anywhere as bad as Melani’s. Probably because I’ve never dated from on line services. I only date men I’ve met in person, or refered through friends.
Women seem to be becoming more aggressively masculine, and men in response are becoming more feminine. Doesn’t work for me. If it works for you, that’s fine. What ever “floats your boat” is OK with me
I used the name Susan_beverlyhills because that’s my name on twitter and I wanted Melani to know who I was. My name really is Susan & I live in Beverly Hills. If you’re on twitter you can find me @susan_bevhills . It did strike me that the current economy might have something to do with this discussion of who pays on dates. The economy here is good, so it really doesn’t come into play in my area, although I’ll agree that it can play a big role in most other parts of the US.
Best wishes!
Susan
I’m with you, Susan. Smarter than me is a huge turn on. I also agree that as a strong woman (some might say I play a more masculine role in work-related environments) I want a man to treat me like a woman. I too want a strong, masculine, smart and sexually assertive man. That’s what “floats my boat” and anything less just doesn’t work for me. Big cyber hugs for taking the time to explain your feelings.
Cheap isn’t sexy. I wish men were more aware of that fact.
Sara, so true.
Maybe part of the reason she’s single is because of the entitlement attitude, among others, that this writer has. As a person with an income, why shouldn’t she offer to pay once in a while??
No, Marty, I’m single because I’m a widow. I waited 5 years after my husband’s death to begin dating again. Committed longterm relationships are the way I’ve spent the bulk of my adult life. My suggestion to you if you don’t like my “entitlement attitude” (or any others you think I have), is to find another blog to read and stop subjecting yourself to mine.
Marty, part of being a man is providing for your woman. If you are trying to win the affections of a woman you can expect to pony up some money. That’s part of how it works. Even after being married for almost nineteen years I still pay.
There is some serious patriarchy embedded in this conversation. For evidence, see Scott’s comment.
I could write a whole post about this but this is not my blog…LOL I will point out that in 2012 with all of the advances women have made career wise (which I am thrilled about) and the equal pay law (which I support) I don’t think it is unreasonable for women to share in the expense of dating. You obviously feel differently. That is fair. Life is about choices and you get to do this any way you want. Personally I find it odd that a woman’s independence should stop when the check comes. I don’t think the guy here did anything wrong. He paid all of the checks without a word until you offered to pick up one which was perfectly reasonable. My 2 cents (and no, I am not cheap…LOL)
Joseph, it’s not my independence that stops once the check arrives, it is much deeper than that. I loved the comment from Mitch. I think he perfectly explained what women–independent ones too–feel a lot of the time. I also don’t call men until we are in a committed relationship.
I think that it is cultural imperative that a “man pays”. Whether or not this is “fair”, it’s just how things are done. It could be argued that this is a vestigial act, representative of a man providing for and protecting his mate. Without going into the biology or inter-personal dynamics of this arrangement that nature has created, suffice to say these sort of situations are full of conflict when viewed through the prism of sexual equality and women’s rights.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that men and women are not equal. They are different and ideally, complimentary to each other especially in a relationship. But like all relationships there is a dynamic tension that is resolved by give and take. I’m not talking about the first blushes when people meet and they are in the throes of sexual attraction. I’m talking about the long term. Obviously this guy didn’t plan ahead. No strategic thinking or pondering contingencies. It’s a good thing to spend money freely and be mysterious about it’s source. Or go to resturants where the waiters know you by name.
Anyway, the problem is that after awhile, even in a committed relationship when a man expects a woman to pay once in a while it can cause negative feelings because the social “norm” is being violated. Personally I think it should be a subject that is talked about. From my own experience I pay 99% of the time but when my “date” offers to contribute; even just the tip, I thank her but also am glad that she knows the value of money and how in a way it really is unfair that a man is expected to pay 100% of the time. The way I look at it is that we both are enjoying the experience of whatever activity we are sharing and since we both work it really is only fair to share the financial obligation, even if it weighted towards the male. But money and first impressions are important too and I’m sorry this guy disappointed you. Glad the oysters were good. That should have been his first hint!
Mitch, beautifully put. I think I have a bit of a crush.
Me too. Want to visit Kansas City? I have money, good manners and Oysters.
Kansas City here I come.
Does NYC do something weird to men? I’m with you about paying on dates..the guy pays, period. But unlike you, I wouldn’t have noticed or cared when the check arrived. Erase those creeping doubts; your presence is always WORTH it!
Love you, Kristine.
Melani, I understand his explanation for expecting you to pay at the restaurant. But to not have the courtesy to wait in line for your drink? when he is trying to win you back over? hle is not only cheap but stupid and inconsiderate as well.
A man needs to take care of his woman.
” You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar’
Beto, I agree. He should’ve waited in line. I would’ve done it–no matter how long the line was or what the person waiting for the drink had said.
Dear Melani, just a quick follow-up about the movie date. You have to give him credit (and you did
) for taking the trouble to get the tickets in advance. I know you fault him for not standing in line, but I have another perspective. Some people don’t associate movie attendance with eating and drinking. My husband and I almost never eat or drink at a movie. To us it’s just lots of calories, poor quality food and overpriced at that. We’d much rather have a bite to eat before or after and savor good food (maybe it’s because we’re French). I’m not judging those who eat at the movies, but it’s just to say that your date may not have realized how important it was to you. For somebody like me, standing in line for movie food is just not worth it. Maybe you have to get to know him better. I’m not criticizing you at all. Just thinking about the things that you do like about him – tall, attractive, stylish, good company, the special spark between you two, and the trouble he took to pursue you (in a charming way) when you inexplicably (from his perspective) stopped responding to his calls and emails. Just a thought!
Elizabeth, thanks for your thoughts–good ones! I agree, eating and drinking at a movie is both expensive and fattening. I normally sneak in some healthier treats (and I’m worried about men being cheap!) but he had already decided to get a bottled water and then asked if I wanted something too–almost as an afterthought. There is a spark between us and I’ll take your thoughts to heart. Thank you again and Vive la France. I spent my honeymoon in Paris–the best 10 days of my life.
He wasn’t wrong..but he wasn’t right (for you) either. Everything he said (about the timing of his departures at ‘check-time’, and his accepting your offer to pay) seemed appropriate enough…but bottom line, just based on your preferences, the fit wouldn’t have been good long term. The person you want to be with is someone who would naturally, and instictively – without a second thought – have just paid the bill (and waited in line for your Diet Coke). Every time. I know that if it’s my intention to pay (if I take a friend out for their birthday – take mom out for Mother’s day, etc…) I would never ask for the check then leave the table. So – he had some fun charisma – and you enjoyed the time you spent with him…but it’s not a match. Bummer.
Donna, will you move to NYC and be my friend? You get me. I’m hugging my computer now.
Wow…this post and many of these comments are sooo discouraging. I come from a time when an independent woman was a curse. Why should a man pay all the time when often women make more?Why is it an onus to be cheap? If everyone thought cheaply we wouldn’t be wrecking the earth, or have this 99%/1% controversy. To me humility and cheapness go hand in hand to me. I try to be cheap cause I don’t believe anyone needs all the luxury we can lavish in ourselves by spending indiscriminately. Is it the New York lifestyle? I worked in the Hollywood film industry all my life with many wealthy people and found that cheap has nothing to do with generosity. I don’t get it. Women worked tirelessly to be recognized as independent people and we still have too many wanting men to take care of them. It really makes me think all the work was for nothing. Because of course it is easier to be taken care of by someone. So sad…
Kira, wake up and get your facts straight. Women often make more? In what world are you living? As far as living a lavish lifestyle in NYC? Again, do your research before spouting off. Most New Yorkers live in less than half the space that the average American does. A dishwasher or washer and dryer are the most luxurious things a NYer can have. I don’t have either. What is truly disturbing is when women attack other women under the guise of feminism. In fact, I’d call that so sad…. http://www.now.org/issues/economic/factsheet.html
In my community, women often do make more. I, of course, know the statistics, but they are not true everywhere, primarily outside of the white middle class in this country.
I, in no way, intended to attack you. Why are you feeling attacked, anyway? So your feelings aren’t the result of the NY lifestyle. Got it. Now what do you have to say about the rest of my post that has nothing to do with male/female pay or NY?
Why is it so bad to be cheap? Why do you think men should pay for women in any way?
Kira, what community are you talking? If you’re going to to wrap the feminist flag around your shoulders there is only one community. You attacked the others who’ve left comments. You statements have no factual basis and are a unilateral judgement of those who’ve commented before you. I started this blog specifically for women who might be going through the same experience that I was. Perhaps not widowed, but newly single and dating agin. I am surprised and thrilled by the strong male following and it adds an interesting perspective. As far as my response to the other things you spewed, we disagree–simple as that. This is not the place for attacks against women. If you don’t see it as an attack, too bad. It’s my blog.
Kira, on one hand, you are incorrect generally. Women make .75 on men’s $1.00 (although that number is so stark because it’s a lot worse in low-income communities of color. In Washington, DC, for example, women statistically make more than men but that is due to white ladies in the affluent parts of the city who don’t have children). On the other hand, a lot of the reason that is true is patriarchal notions of man=caretaker; woman=jobless homemaker. Hiring and promotion are based on assumptions proliferated by this tired phenomenon. This guy does seem just plain ole’ cheap in many parts of your story, which isn’t your jam. Good for you, that’s not what you like. I just kind of wish the narrative (mostly in the comments, to be honest) would shift from “the man should always pay” thing. It’s based on a really heterosexist cultural more and it’s just kind of offensive for reasons that numerous books have been written about.
I’m a widow, as well, two years older than you. I waited almost the same length of time to attempt dating after my husband’s death. Your blog obviously speaks to my heart and I am looking forward to becoming a faithful reader.
But I must express my support for Daniel here. Throughout your story, there were many instances where the poor man simply could not have known, short of consulting his crystal ball, what was expected of him. Asking him so pointedly how he FELT about allowing you to pay was such an obvious trap; he must have been so uncomfortable in that moment. Had I been in his shoes, and forced to evaluate without knowing your mindset, I too would have assumed that you were actually challenging his acceptance of your independence. In retrospect, it might have been better to have shared with him at that very moment how completely confused you were about his expectations of you regarding the bill.
That said, “reading” a date is always tricky, and I do sympathize with your efforts.
Oh, and feel free to have Daniel contact me since you’re done with him. LOL
Georgia, I don’t think he thought for a moment it was a test. He seemed very happy to have me pay–almost giddy. Big smile when I said I was going to do it and then all over me physically. It turned him on. Thanks for your comment and for following along!
Oh Melani,
Tsk, tsk, tsk. Yes, that’s me clucking from the wrong side of the Mississippi. Don’t let a few dollars stand in the way of what sounds like a terrific guy. Think of all the other bad things that you could have discovered about him. It is, in fact, 2012.
…And I am crushed that you have a crush on ‘Mitch.’ I now smell like Mitch. Unfortunately I also smell like my long deceased grandma. Not like she might smell NOW. But the the way she smelled while still vertical and breathing.
I am still waiting for my “free” sample from Creed and hope to eventually smell like Cary Grant. Cigarettes and all.
And BTW, we too have oysters in Montana. Unfortunately they are of the “Rocky Mountain…” variety. And they are as disgusting as they sound.
Steve (“damn you Mitch!)
Steve, you are hilarious. That Creed better get there soon and I want a report. Sign it, Cary.
Melani. The Creed arrived in today’s mail along with the Aqua Quorum that your new beau, Mitch suggested. I’ve already applied some to a key pressure point. As the room already smells like a bunch of Yentas at a Hadassah meeting, I haven’t ventured a sniff of the Creed.
Unfortunately either I clicked on the wrong item or they sent me the wrong sample. I have ‘Himalaya.’ Not ‘smoking-head-butting-green-tweed-Gary Grant’ as I had hoped. I pray I don’t smell like a Yeti, or worse, Creed from ‘The Office’s’ mung beans. The Auga failed to get the swoonage I had hoped for at the local IGA. I plan on wearing the Creed at the next family gathering and will report back on their opinions.
I also see where Mitch’s Dudley Do-Right persona has captured your affection. As oppossed to my Snidley Whiplash Asperbergers persona. I step aside and wish you both much happiness.
But keep in mind that Snidley has some wicked rope skills that applied correctly could also result in much happiness. I assure you there would be no railroad tracks involved.
Snidley/Cary
Cary, Himalaya is sublime. You won’t smell like a Yeti–promise.
When you mess with the best you fall like the rest. You need to find a new persona. Snidely Whiplash didn’t appeal to Nell Fenwick no matter how hard he tried. To be intriguing and mysterious one has to be…intriguing and mysterious. Besides, Melani wears my cologne. It’s transfered by proximity. hahahaha!
We are secretly collaborating on a book about the responses to this blog. It is tentatively called “Life in Hell. Disappointment, amusement, boredom and outrage in the over 50 dating scene complete with sexual tension, ingrained personality disorders, Aspergers and the weight of reality smothering any hope of ever meeting Prince or Princess of the shinning light of perpetual idealism”.
But what it’s really about is love, sex and food.
Well played, sir. Well played. You have indeed won the affection of the lovely Nell, and I step aside. Good luck to you sir!
(BTW… Aqua Quorum arrived in todays mail. And again, I smell like my grandma’s canasta group. I appreciate your advice. But perhaps I have some sort of Grandma genes running through my veins and the fault may not be yours.
Grandma’s canasta group. Hilarious. You are a funny guy, Steve.
Yeah. And he’s Jewish. Or seems to know allot about it. Another plus!
melanie, the community i’m speaking of is the black community. it has always been a bit different from the rest of the “community”. but i only said community just to not get into that.
i said i was discouraged, just to point out i wasn’t attacking anyone. it is discouraging. it’s a setback for women. we can agree to disagree, and you can continue to put your worth in who will pay and who won’t, and i’ll continue fighting the good fight that proclaims no one is expected to pay anything for me just because i’m a woman.
Kira, you can fight your good fight and I’ll fight mine. I don’t see any other community than one and within it women can agree to disagree. Perhaps there is a difference within the black community and a woman’s earning potential compared to a man. That’s food for thought since Daniel is black.
Melani
Wow you sure did raise a few hackles on this one. You, get to choose whatever you want regardless of what all others think of you and your choices period, isn’t that the point of this whole effort? While not wealthy by many standards, I do have a decent income and when married, ended up paying for everything all the time. One day I turned around and found that he hadn’t picked up a check in years. Those days are gone. Mind you I am not “dating” so maybe there is a distinction; from dipping a toe in the dating waters to having a drink with a friend. I don’t mind paying for a round or even going dutch. To each his own in the money department I say. I don’t think having a guy buy me dinner has to do with a man taking care of me, usually it means, I’ll buy next time. To me, I’m saving money, haha! I’d be a little more up front I think. If he left the table when the bill came, I would have put it in front of his place setting before he got back. If you didn’t want to pay for the tab, why offer at all to then be miffed? At the movies when going in, say I’ll go find the seats, please get me a Diet Coke. No confusion. You may have had a spark with him, yet I wonder if he is really cheap or just clueless? On to the next one eh?
Cheap is cheap is cheap and obviously some of us, myself included do not like cheap men! Cheapness is really a lifestyle and apparently a few people here find it attractive. Not me. I am not cheap, even when I don’t really have a lot of money. I also was ingrained (here in the South) with how men are suppose to treat you, good manners, and dating protocol. I roll old school!
Dovie, I was just talking to a friend on the phone and she said to tell you that she’s having a bumper sticker made for her car that says, “I Roll Old School!” We both loved your comment. Thanks for making us laugh.
Its a confusing issue.
I think the party who plans and requested the evening out should pay.
Okay… I haven’t read the 30+ comments already… wow, you know how to start a good debate over the implied/assumed rules of dating… but here are my two cents… You’ve gone out with a lot of losers, and you’re going to throw this man under the bus for not aligning 100% with your social dating rules?
From my end of the online dating world. There are a lot of unspoken/implied/unknown rules around who pays. I don’t know. Everything else he did implied he had class. And in the context of some of your other ventures – he sounded quite nice. Of course, you still don’t know if he has cockroaches in his apartment. Now that would and should be a deal-breaker.
Rod, you’re right. I’ve had my share of losers but cheap is just as bad as nose hair–maybe worse since one is rapidly remedied. I’m not quite throwing him under the bus–yet.
Years ago, I dated a man who I considered cheap. I was far more forgiving than Mel. Months later, my initial instincts were right. I wasted precious time. If Mel’s red flags were alerted, she needs to trust that. After I broke it off with the cheap guy, the next man I dated was not only not cheap, but he cooks! I married him 14 years ago. My instincts were right. Go with yours, Mel!
Dana, your story is exactly what I’m trying to avoid. Thank you for sharing your cautionary tale. Glad you found your keeper!
“Cheap” is a mindset that just isn’t a good fit for yours…or mine. Two cheap people can be very happy together, but for me, it says “red flag!”
I take umbrage with Daniel’s ill timed departures as a thinly veiled attempts to get you to pick up the bill, but have no other issue with the approach to money. I don’t understand: I make my own money, have my own life. Why shouldn’t I pay at least part of my own way?
I have a lot of younger friends – male – who tell me dating tales from their side of the fence. And a repeating theme is how women take more than advantage of the courtship dance, milking them and their wallets for every thing they can. Top shelf drinks at the bar, picking up the tab for dinners, paying for entertainment tickets. All on their bill.
I told one friend (who was a gentleman going broke dating) that he should at least pitch the notion of going dutch. Which got me “you’re kidding right? A woman wants men to pay ALL THE TIME. She’ll just go find somebody else to make them pay.”
What a shallow view of us. I apologized for my half of the species right then and there, and haven’t stopped since.
I had a lovely date with a gentleman who picked a 5-star venue for our first date. I was *mortified*. I never would’ve put that much pressure on a first date, nor would I ever expect a first date to pick up half of what was bound to be a ginormous tab. When the bill came, I took out my credit card and asked to split the bill. We went back and forth – ‘I asked you…” and I *finally* relented, but under duress and with the promise that I would pay for the next meal.
Because you see, if you remove money from the interplay, you remove the pressure to have sex or follow up in anyway. The meeting is truly about *meeting*, not setting expectations down the line that someone’s paid for a good time later.
If we ever expect to ‘outgrow’ the stereotype of being teases who make men ‘pay for sex’ with endless rounds of dates and entertainment, we need to step up to the plate with our wallets. If we want to be treated with respect and viewed as serious relationship prospects, we need to *show them the money* and act like it. Offer to go dutch. Suggest the locations. Hell, even offer to pay their way.
Break the mold. Be the independent, resilient woman you portray yourself as and step up with your wallet.
First of all, Dorothy, being the independent, resilient woman I am I’ll continue to do exactly as I please so take your wallet advice and, well, shove it back in your handbag. Also, remove me from your apology for “half the species” and it’s rather arrogant of you to think you speak for the female population. I’ve never felt pressure to have sex based on a man paying for a meal and if you have, that is an issue that far exceeds your simplistic resolution of removing money from the interplay. This isn’t about money for me and anyone who’s read ALL my posts should understand that. It is about a personality type–the sort of man I’m attracted to. AND, I’ve never been called a tease.
So sorry Melani, I won’t stop apologizing. I think when we enter these things with expectations that men are responsible for the tab, we invite the pressure we receive re: sex and stereotypes that go along with it.
I like your blog and will keep reading, but on this, we will emphatically have to agree to disagree, your rude comment to ‘shove it’ not withstanding.
Dorothy, again, I’ve never felt pressure to have sex based on a man paying the bill and I don’t have a female friend who has either. Yep, my shove it comment was rude, but that shouldn’t be a surprise either since you’ve read my blog. Your apology for ALL women (who does that?) was offensive–much more so than my telling ONE to shove their advice.
I’m in the middle of a chat with one of my male friends in NYC (as I used to live there – it’s nice to see you visiting the haunts I used to go to). And his comment to me was “It’s a mixed bag. Some the guy pays, some are split. NYC has (his words) very independent women. If the first date goes well, some of them insist on taking care of it the next time or paying for drinks elsewhere. I pay for the first time, but I’m not paying all the time.” So, THAT observation from another independent, gentleman NYC male.
Lighten up Melani – YOU took my comments to be a direct assault on your morals. Back up and reread: it was general observation. And when I ‘apologize for my half of the species’, it’s most often received with a laugh – and a lot of storytelling about just how crazy our half can be. Like the dentist to who told me about how one of his dates kept propositioning him for sex in return for dental work. I ‘apologized’ for her too – “we’re not all batshiat crazy’. BTW? That got a laugh from him too – and more stories. But I digress…
We’re of the same generation, m’am. And even when I was 30, my approach was the same. I’ve ALWAYS been horrified to hear other women take the approach that men must pay for everything, then be put off when men can’t keep up with the cash flow. I can’t tell you how many times I heart “how cheap is he?” And my response was always the same: “Do you also have a job and money? If so, why can’t you help with the cost of the events you’re BOTH enjoying?”
I guess my thought here is: I bring more to the table than a pretty face and witty conversation. I mentioned to another friend that I don’t NEED a man – I can manage my own life, pay my own bills and find my own entertainment. What I WANT is a man for an intimate relationship of equal partners, and to be taken seriously and with respect.
I think many women crave that. But to me, then the approach to the table that someone else has to do all the heavy lifting as far as planning, entertaining and paying rather contradicts that mindset.
Dorothy, I didn’t take your comments to be a direct assault on my morals with regard to the sex for dinner portion of your comment. I just don’t think you speak for all women and their experiences. Your NYC independent male friend? So? He won’t always pay. My late husband spent the bulk of his adult life in NYC and felt just the opposite. There’s not one personality type in any location just as all women don’t feel pressure to sleep with a man based on the oysters he purchased.
Differing opinions are are always welcome but when you give a directive based on your beliefs with the qualifier being my independence and resilience you’d better believe I’ll have a strong reaction.
I am totally a feminist, but I have to admit, I prefer it if the guy pays for first few times. After that I pay (offer to take them out) and then usually just split things and try to even things out in other ways. I think I prefer the guy to pay at first mostly because it, to me, shows a certain real interest. (Also, it shows a bit that they are aware of the trials of a single mum). And often the guy is picking the place the first couple of times, and often the place picked is out of my budget. It’s not about getting a free meal, certainly not at my age! But it is about feeling like the guy cares enough and is a generous person. And, I think if a guy lets me pay or split it, it feels more like a buddy situation than romantic.
R.J., being a single parent is tough, both financially and emotionally. A little romance and appreciation is the least you deserve. Thank you for sharing.
Women aren’t the only single parents out there. Single Dads also appreciate some romance and appreciation.
Bruce, I specifically didn’t write “single mother” because I was acknowledging single fathers too by using parent. Quit being such a whiner.
RJ was referring to being a single mom and the trials and tribulations that go with it. You sympathized with her in stating that some romance and appreciation is the least she deserved.
You may not have typed “single mom” but you inferred it. My point is that there is another side to the coin and that the other side of that coin can also want the same thing.
If I had called her whiner, you would have been all over me. I mention that single Dad’s want the same and I’m a whiner??
This blog entry is one of your most active. With that, you’ll get all kinds of responses and not all are going to agree with you. You are the one putting yourself and your experiences out there for the world to read. You would be very naive to think everyone will agree with your thoughts and position.
Don’t get testy with some of us because you don’t like what you’re reading. You want the world to read you Melani? Great but expect some scrutiny and opposing views.
Bruce, your comment was whining. I specifically put “single parent” to recognize that both mothers and fathers who are raising their children as single parents deserve romance and appreciation. Yet you STILL had to complain? Give me a break. Now you have the audacity to tell me what I was implying? Really, Bruce? You know what I was implying? Oh, and your big finish of “Don’t get testy” was the topper. Who do you think you’re speaking to? I’ll get testy when I feel like getting testy and if “the world” chooses not to read then I’ll have to live with it.
Whew..really need to process this one Mel. Dating is a courting process, I’m not sure any amount of time will change that basic concept for our generation (and Daniel was our generation right)? Even my 17 yr old son knows he needs money to “ask a girl out for a date.” I certainly agree when a man asks a woman on a date it would be appropriate to pick up the tab. I think what I’ve found is that it’s considerate to offer other niceties such as making him a nice dinner or picking up a silly somethings he’s mentioned while dating and getting to know one another.
I think it’s pretty obvious if one partner seriously outearns the other it would be polite to pay for the extracurriculars
Still, it doesn’t work for you and that’s really all that counts. You shouldn’t have to defend what matters to you.
Jill, yes, he’s from our generation. I agree that cooking dinner is a good way to reciprocate. I love doing that as well as other things such picking up a book he’s mentioned he would like to read or a bottle of wine that he enjoyed during a night out. I agree, I shouldn’t have to defend myself.
I don’t understand how he could get a bottle of water and not be in the same line as the diet cokes?? I may be caught up on semantics but that part threw me. Had a terrible match.com date today and he knew i wasn’t thrilled with his depressing outlook on life so i damn sure made him pay for lunch after making me endure his pity party!
Kelly, he didn’t get the bottle of water. I think he might’ve gone to the drinking fountain.
To validate your experience, I’ll just say, if you get a vibe on something than you are probably right. Good riddance- you don’t need someone like this guy.
Thanks, Kelly.
I don’t understand… you told him “no worries” if the line was too long, and then you were upset that he came back empty-handed because the line was too long. Did you mean “no worries” when you said it?
Kate, I’m sick of replying to things I think are obvious, but obviously are not. Here’s what someone wrote on my FB page that I feel says it beautifully.
“Etiquette is like tap dancing on a tightrope. The coded language that well mannered people use can only be understood by others like them. Any IDIOT should have known that he’d better come back with a Diet Coke. You should not have to teach manners to adults. Certainly not in the early stages of dating!”
Well said, Robin.
So he’s history, then?
Sidebar: When I google: dungarees dating,
You’re at the top of the list. They say there’s no such thing as bad publicity.
This is a great blog Melani. Don’t get discouraged. It’s interesting how much, ummm… passion this subject has generated. Money is a very touchy issue. If a man spends allot of money on dating someone and the dating continues then obviously there is not only a financial investment but an emotional one as well. At a certain point allot of men feel that the woman is obligated to return this investment of energy whether it be by; on occasion, paying for an activity or expressing interest and admiration in her date or even something more physically expressive. But to me it is the epitome of poor breeding, selfishness and self-absorbtion to ask a woman out on a date and not pay. As I said, as time goes on and the relationship grows these things can change but not on the first few dates! What better way to make a lousy first impression. Or 2nd if there even is one. But as I said a few days ago, the social rule of a man always paying is a little unfair. Unless there is a return. And if there isn’t, then both parties generally walk away.
Just wanted to add that if I’m not interested in the guy or just like him as a friend, that is the only time I am not comfortable having them pay. If I insist on splitting the bill, you can bet that I am not interested in a second date.
Hey Susan,
Just read and watched some Dr. Pat Allen stuff, upon your recommendation. She’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing!
Kate, you’re welcome! It’s too bad Pat Allen only appears in L.A. and doesn’t travel the US. Attending her classes in person is a truly enlightening experience. If I could package her as an aerosol spray I’d be rich. She’s wonderful
Susan
Whew…a lot of responses here to process. I thought I’d never get to a comment who mentioned the word “courting” which was what I was thinking…Even though that word seems like from a generation or two before us, I don’t know another good substitute. Melani I’m only a couple yrs older than you and have been married since I was 21, so I’ve been out of the dating game a long time…but I love this blog and I think we would definitely be fast friends…That being said…I have to say if I were in the same situation as you for all the reasons you mention, I would expect the guy to pay as well. He asked, he pays. Not until we got quite a bit farther down the road would I start to reciprocate. But yes, it would start with me cooking him dinner etc… This is hard to express in words…I think you’re looking for one of these men to court you in a manner than makes you feel that he wants to be with you and that you are worth his time, his money and his effort. I’m sure this is how the great love of your life treated you. He treated you as an equal but was willing to take the time and effort to court you, date you, woo you,…whatever you want to call it, so you felt special, worthy, desired. That is part of the romance of being with that special person, and the growing of that special love for someone. If they don’t even start out that way…it’s never going to get better from there. And the cheap thing…well, that is just something…like you said…it can’t be gotten rid of like nose hair…haha… I also suspect a hint of selfishness…no Diet Coke?…you weren’t worth waiting in line for?…what? I think Beto had it right…If a guy isn’t trying to make a good impression at first…it’s only going to get worse down the line. I’m sure that Daniel was not all bad, but he was lacking some very key elements and you are smart to pick up on that early. I don’t blame you at all. I wish I had an eligible friend to sweep you off your feet, but sadly I do not. I wish you all the luck in finding the man of your dreams, but I’ll be sad when your blog is over.
Tracey, what you wrote made me choke up. You are exactly right. I want to be courted and I’ll hold out for the guy who knows he wants to court me. Thank you for your amazing ability to understand what I’m looking for. I think we would be fast friends too. If you think of that eligible friend, I’m ready to be swept off my feet. Thank you so much for your message. I’m glad you’re enjoying the blog!
I’m absolutely loving your blog. I have two youngish kids at home that prevent me from doing the kind of dating you are doing, but I’m completely living vicariously through this. I like the fact that you are embracing all of these issues — as a feminist, I can’t say I fully comprehend the guy pays thing — but I am learning from it. Also, I like the frankness of your sexuality — it is so healthy. Can’t wait to read about your further adventures. As a Brooklynite, I highly recommend gettng a date on a kayak on the East River. There’s a good lesson in power play there.
I believe you are asking a man to spend $1500- $2000 a month dating, that’s with around three dates a week doing the kinds of things you describe. Of course it could be that you use this tactic to disable his abilty to date others, however on the whole I think that’s an unwise expenditure. I would be a little put off by people who think they can help themselves to my life savings and not even treat me like a friend. I applaud your eagerness to embrace the adventure, but there are fine thrills to be had without the lust for money. The real adventure is a man so absorbing you wouldn’t be able to tear yourself away to watch a movie, or so enthralling you couldn’t sit with a table between you, much less eat. And likewise you should dare to be open and amazing and spontaneous.
Pat, first of all I don’t decide where we are going on the date the man does and I’ve never dated any man I’ve met thus far (online), three times in one week. But, if he chooses to spend $1500-$2000 a month dating that is certainly his prerogative–and frankly none of your concern. I don’t think you’ve read my blog from the beginning because you are making assumptions that are incorrect. I’m perfectly fine with meeting for a drink or coffee or even a walk on the Hudson. He does the picking. I am also more than willing to cook dinner for the man I’m dating and in fact love to do so. Your comment about “lust for money” is so far off the mark that my advice to you is to read the blog, get to know me and then draw your conclusions. I am confident you’ll realize how ludicrous that statement is. I also have no idea who the “people who think they can help themselves to my life savings” are, but I assure you I have no interest. Finally, your conclusion that I may be “using this tactic to disable his ability to date others” is bordering on paranoid. Do you really think that a man would be forced into dating one woman only because he couldn’t afford to date others? That is a ridiculous rationale. I don’t need to trick a man into wanting to only date me. That sort of thing happens organically when the right chemistry is there.
I don’t want a man to pay all the time. Or even most of the time. I want what my mother’s generation fought for: equality. He can pay on the first date if he did the asking, after that it should be equal, period. Insisting that the man pays the lion’s share dates you, Melani. As much as if you’d referred to jeans as dungarees.
Bully for you, Nikki, you’ve made a choice on what YOU want. BUT, I take exception with your reference to the “dates you” conclusion. If it’s your “mother’s generation” who fought for equality then I assume your mother would feel that she should pay her share so how does it date me? By the way, Nikki, I was standing beside my own mother as we protested and marched for equal rights for women so there’s no need to remind me of what women fought for. I was there. My definition of equality is I have the right to decide what works for me and that’s not dictated by men, society, women or blog commenters. I’ve said over and over that it is a definite male personality type that I’m attracted to and that personality just naturally pays. It’s automatic. If you can’t understand it, frankly, I couldn’t care less. You might just be surprised the number of women my daughters’ age who feel the same way I do. I guess they’re just “dated old souls,” right? Keep reading, though, Nikki. Thanks for your comment.
You are just rationalizing, how disappointing. Perhaps you should rename your blog “1 Year of Scoring Free Meals at 50.”
See, now you’ve crossed the line, Nikki. I’m not rationalizing anything. I’m saying a woman has every right to do what works for her. What you should do (if it works for you) is move away from this blog. It never ceases to amaze me why anyone would continue to read a blog when they dislike the content. Perhaps I should do what many bloggers do and simply delete your first snarky comment because now you’ve gone from snark to nasty. In the history of this blog I’ve only blocked 4 people. Not bad when you consider there has been half a million readers and many disagreed. If you had simply stated you disagreed with my view–no problem, but to be snotty with the first message and downright offensive with this comment, I simply have to say that you are either a bitter, miserable human being or you have no manners. Perhaps your mother should’ve taken a little break from her duties as a feminist to teach you some. Feel free to comment again, Nikki, but next time around leave the snark and nastiness behind. Or, you could do something really crazy and simply click away and find a blog that better suits your obviously discriminating tastes (perhaps Gloria Steinem has one?). If you leave another offensive comment I’ll block you. Simple as that and you’ll be number five.
Sorry, that was pretty mean of me.
I do like your blog, I will keep reading.
Best of luck.